GW got the point

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Sergio
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Sergio » Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:41 pm

I'm glad GW finally listened and it's a step in the right direction. I think the lack of points and the means of finding some semblance of balance for game play was what was what holding back most fantasy players to moving onto AOS or at least giving it a good try to see if they liked the new format.

It be great if it takes off and returns a lot of the former fantasy players, as well as bringing back a second life to all their fantasy models. If you still don't like the system after giving it a try at least the demand for fantasy models online will increase if the AOS bandwagon gets big enough.
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Slimnoid
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Slimnoid » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:48 pm

Inquisitor Wall wrote: I don't know if point values are what could save the game, but it certainly is a step in the right direction.


I don't think points value will fix any of the glaring issues inherent in the system. It certainly won't save it, as it's a bit too little, too late for a lot of WHFB players; they've either given up the ghost, gone to 9th Age/continue playing older editions, converted to Kings of War, or just moved on to other systems entirely.

WildBorr wrote:If a game is fun, does it really matter if it's good or not?


Fun is subjective to the individual. A solid, balanced game system is not.
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Dez
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Dez » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:41 pm

I'll take fun every time. I'd rather play AoS than Chess...though I'd rather scrape the bottom of a Goodwill dumpster using my front teeth than every play that AoS round 2 event scenario again.
What aims do the Orks have? What is the point of a tornado?

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I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
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AdamL
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Re: GW got the point

Postby AdamL » Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:56 pm

Just like fun is subjective so is people's opinion. We get it slim you hate gw but don't ruin other people's parade. Its a little annoying and the negativity is getting enough. Some of us are trying to just have fun, roll some dice and hang out with buddies and play a tabletop game not compete for LvO.
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Kinne
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Kinne » Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:35 pm

Adam, I don't know how long you've been playing Warhammer, but I definitely empathize with where Slim is coming from. I'm a fluff guy. I LOVE the backstory. I write my own backstory (seriously, ask the older guys like Brett and Kevin about how often I use the word "backstory" when discussing Warhammer). The setting for Warhammer had gravitas, drama, danger, glimmers of hope. . .everything a great fantasy setting needs. And people like Slim and I loved it for years. I played it for about thirteen. I have absolutely no idea how many countless hours I spent playing, painting, building lists, reading books, writing backstory, talking about the game, thinking about the game, coming up with scenarios and leagues to run, running tournaments, etc., etc. Then the End Times came out, and I'm sure a lot of us thought, "Okay, they wrote themselves into the corner on this, so now they're going to seriously mess stuff up and kind of start over." And you got that impression after reading Nagash, Malekith and Glottkin. I was expecting them to keep up End Times books until the summer, maybe run a massive, worldwide campaign like they did with Storm of Chaos over a decade ago.

Instead, we got, "LOL, everyone dies. Here's a new world where everything you knew is gone. Also, your dwarves aren't dwarves any more, because we can't copyright that, so they're Duardin now."

I'm not exaggerating when I say that I was despondent for a full weekend when I heard the news. Something that had been so central to my life for over a decade was just completely erased. And the only real reason was because GW failed when they tried to sue a company over copyright infringement, and they can't copyright dwarves, elves, The Empire or Chaos, so they canned everything and came up with idiotic names (seriously, duardin and orruks?) so they could slap a copyright on it. They made things different just to make them different enough that they could successfully sue someone in the future.

Now, I won't agree that this is enough cause to inject my anger at GW into every thread mentioning Age of Sigmar, and for those who find it fun, I genuinely hope that it does well. I just wanted to explain why so many were so upset when GW made this move, and even are to this day, especially considering how flawed the system was when it first game out. It was a giant slap in the face.
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Dez
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Dez » Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:05 pm

Adam's been playing for a long time, he just took a break.

I can definitely see both sides, I look at how much GW stuff I have stacked up all over the place...and my urge to play either game is next to nothing. I can't tell you how STUPID I think the new names for everything is, and TBH I have no idea on the AoS fluff. How many hours that make literal DAYS of my life that I also put into thinking of an army theme, converting it, painting it, reviewing tactics and how to play...not to mention the actual gameplay I spent on it. Yeah, I'm more than a little salty about it myself.

However I think that the game itself has a glimmer of hope...if they can get the balance even close to right. It's not like the old world by a long shot...yet. Maybe, just maybe, they can really create a living and breathing world like we were used to. I guess I am ever the optimist. I'm all for getting together with like minded friends and having a fun game of it. I seriously love the new ORK models, I'm actually thinking of picking them up.

I don't feel invested anymore. To me, GW is the back burner I'm keeping an eye on. I've found Bolt Action, which to me is a crazy rich story to play in...and real. There is little real chance of it being retconned too. It's got great balance and I love the Fog of War mechanic.
What aims do the Orks have? What is the point of a tornado?

Fighting E.G.A.D.D Excitable Gamer Attention Deficit Disorder

I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
ADB

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AdamL
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Re: GW got the point

Postby AdamL » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:33 am

Honestly everybody has a valid point and everybody can agree to disagree. If the game isn't right for you then move on there are other games out there just let the folks who decide to stick with it have their fun.
Gw has been crappy and i start probably around 2002 acccording to the first white dwarf i still have. Was introduced to Mordheim when it was released and fell in love with fantasty. Had every army book and tons of hours as a kid building dwarves. I participated in the Storm of Chaos world event and still have the book for it. (Grimgor da beast stoopid archeaon getting knocked out so easily,. Twas a borin fight).

So if that count for anything i feel slightly jaded by the end of the old world to this revamp. It sucks that fantasy is gone(not really ive played 5th and 8th even aftee age) and change sucks but this is what we have now. You can like it and try to house rule it to your liking or play kings of war or older editions.
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Kinne
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Kinne » Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:15 pm

And I should re-stress my final point that I glossed over - I don't think it's justification for inserting bitterness into any thread about AoS. I just wanted to make sure you knew where Slim was coming from. Sounds like you're coming from a similar place!

Overall, I don't hate the system. I think it doesn't scale up to WHFB-sized battles well, given that you measure from model to model and not base to base, but I haven't tried it myself so I can't say for certain. And the fun is what I live for. I enjoy making those scenarios that aren't necessarily "balanced", but they're fun. I made Movie Marines a regular thing years back, because it's a lot of fun to have five Marines with stupid powerful stat lines tearing through everything they can before dying. So the rules being simpler (eliminating the To Hit and To Wound tables, for example) I don't mind at all. But the complete lack of any balancing system makes pickup games very difficult if not impossible. If you met a like minded person (Dez, for instance), it's an awesome system. But you can't just to go OtW on a Wednesday night and meet someone you've never met before, then play a game of AoS that you'll both find fun without an hour-long conversation beforehand.

Hopefully this will fix that, but with the whole AoS move, I'm dubious. Personally, I don't know if I'll be able to play AoS. That wound is still too fresh. But I do hope they fix it. Even if there are points values, you can still cast them aside and just have fun.
"Every man is a spark in the darkness. By the time he is noticed, he is gone forever; a retinal after image that soon fades and is obscured by newer, brighter lights."

J Rzasa
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Re: GW got the point

Postby J Rzasa » Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:13 pm

But you can't just to go OtW on a Wednesday night and meet someone you've never met before, then play a game of AoS that you'll both find fun without an hour-long conversation beforehand.


This. When my rep says she doesn't understand why it isn't more popular, or says she can't believe they actually are going to add points, this is what I say.

The game's core system is solid. There are 1 or 2 minor tweaks to some of the rules that need to happen, but the core mechanics are solid. Since the models have static odds, it should be easy to assign points values to the models, and do so in a way that makes sense and "balances" the lists.

I'm very interested to see what they come up with. Organized Narrative Play, and competitive Tournament play is the right way to format these games. 40k and Fantasy/AoS lend themselves to Narrative Play due to their wealth of fluff (Yes, AoS has it, it's just not polished and no one cares).

I ordered one of the summer kits. We'll run the summer event, see how it goes.

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Commander_Jay
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Re: GW got the point

Postby Commander_Jay » Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:16 pm

J Rzasa wrote:
But you can't just to go OtW on a Wednesday night and meet someone you've never met before, then play a game of AoS that you'll both find fun without an hour-long conversation beforehand.

This.


Yeah, exactly. You have to make your own rules, guidelines, and a whole series of agreements to play.

I appreciate that they're adding the points and such. But I have no idea why it took this long. It's very easy to do with such a simple system.
They also need to update all the scenarios. First or even second turn wins are unacceptable. Plenty of them favor one side with about a 99% chance to win.

I also don't understand the elimination of Warhammer Fantasy. Why could Fantasy models and that universe use this system? Why did they have to erase everything? (Fluff and lore wise). It ruins a world that people loved for 33 years now. It will always be Orks, Elves, Golbins, Empire, Dwarves, etc; for me. Not the new universe with the new names and everything.

Hopefully it will turn out well, but it hilarious to see it done this way. Compare that to the most recent editions of Malifaux or Warmachine, that did an update, or have it coming very soon. They updated everything in the system, added tons more content, from background stories to new models.

I hope we can have Warhammer Fantasy back! I liked that world, and the hundreds of games played in it.
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