So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

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Dez
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So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Dez » Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:53 pm

Will they just...stop?

Does anyone remember a time, in the not so distant past, when WFB would be full to the gills and be played upstairs and in the basement at OtW? Ah, the gory glory days :)

I was curious mostly if it would switch to Kings of War.
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J Rzasa
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby J Rzasa » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:52 pm

I picked up a Kings of War Rulebook last weekend, and have been reading through it. I really like it. However, I have yet to play a game, so it's hard to know for sure.

I have to check the Calendar at the store, but I think I'm going to run Demoes of it on 10/17 and 10/18. I'll bring in 3-4 Armies, and we'll run through some of the scenarios, as well as having people bring theirs if they want to try it out.

The one thing I've noticed is that 2000 pts is a LOT of models. What I would field in a 2500 pt Warhammer game is only like 1000-1500 pts in Kings of War.

I don't know if the club will want to continue to run Warhammer 8th ed tournaments, or Age of Sigmar events. But I think the store will pick up the Kings of War mantle if the club isn't interested.

~J

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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Slimnoid » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:12 pm

The Indy GTs will be using Kings of War from here on out which is a not-insignificant chunk of players here in the US. I suspect a number of other GTs will follow suit, since the response to AoS has been cold at best.

J Rzasa wrote:I have to check the Calendar at the store, but I think I'm going to run Demoes of it on 10/17 and 10/18. I'll bring in 3-4 Armies, and we'll run through some of the scenarios, as well as having people bring theirs if they want to try it out.

The one thing I've noticed is that 2000 pts is a LOT of models. What I would field in a 2500 pt Warhammer game is only like 1000-1500 pts in Kings of War.


I've got a copy of the book as well. Doubtful that I can attend that weekend, but I'd probably be down for demos on bi-weekly Wednesdays.

Keep in mind that KoW only really cares about the size of the unit, and not the amount of models in the unit. You never take the models off the movement tray, so it probably seems a lot to you (and me, honestly) because amount of models = relative size of game.
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Inquisitor Wall » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:27 pm

I know Braging Rights, a long running team fantasy event is now playing malifaux instead. Some are sticking with 8th Ed fantasy. Sadly all of my fantasy models are now sitting in my display case probably forever. I wish they had killed fantasy before making wood elves even worse.
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby J Rzasa » Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:34 pm

Yeah, I've noticed that most of them are switching up.

While you don't necessarily need 40 models for a unit, you still need a good amount. You can get away with some artistic unit fillers, but if someone made a giant base for 60 Skeletons and glued like 3 to it with some Tomb Stones, I'd call Shenanigans.

There are a ton of things I love about the game, and some stuff I don't. Going in no particular order:

Pros:
- Magic is much much more simplified. Wizards are still cool buffers/Artillery Pieces, but no longer army destroying killing machines
- Super easy to make a list. No more points fumbling for 1 or 2 dudes, no worrying about percentages (except allies).
- The game is simple enough that there are really only minor differences between unit entries, but this only makes it easier to balance and removes the douche factor without making game play less strategic.
- Lots of Army Lists in the main book, and a ton more coming in November.
- The Company is really into supporting it. Other than Battlefoam, Mantic is the easiest to work with.

Cons:
- No Skirmishers. This added a very interesting mechanic to the game, and was relatively accurate for the time period the combat system is based on
- Book is a little confusing in places. Mainly in army construction. It says that you need to take a number of troops to unlock Characters/War Machines/Monsters, but it never specifies what a troop is. In the Army lists they are coded as Infantry, Calvary, Large Infantry, or Large Calvary. As far as I can tell, if it isn't a Monster, War Machine or Character, it's a troop.
- Some of the army lists are missing some models from Warhammer, and I don't even mean the really specialized ones. Like Dwarfs don't have Stone Throwers in their list. I didn't expect an Anvil of Doom, but no Catapults?
- I dislike not being able to form a retinue around a character. Minor point, but since there is no leadership it would have been nice just to be able to insert a character into a unit instead of having him hang out on his own in the back.

I think what I find the funniest is that Kings of War is pretty much Age of Sigmar, with 2 major differences: Block units and Points Values. I think the last one is the only thing that sank Age of Sigmar. Because everything else is almost exactly the same, though it is presented differently.

~J

EDIT: Kevin, you should give this a shot. I think you'd like it.

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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Dez » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:25 pm

I like that it's streamlined for competitive play, and has Skaven.
What aims do the Orks have? What is the point of a tornado?

Fighting E.G.A.D.D Excitable Gamer Attention Deficit Disorder

I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Slimnoid » Fri Sep 25, 2015 5:59 pm

J Rzasa wrote:Cons:
- No Skirmishers. This added a very interesting mechanic to the game, and was relatively accurate for the time period the combat system is based on
- Book is a little confusing in places. Mainly in army construction. It says that you need to take a number of troops to unlock Characters/War Machines/Monsters, but it never specifies what a troop is. In the Army lists they are coded as Infantry, Calvary, Large Infantry, or Large Calvary. As far as I can tell, if it isn't a Monster, War Machine or Character, it's a troop.
- Some of the army lists are missing some models from Warhammer, and I don't even mean the really specialized ones. Like Dwarfs don't have Stone Throwers in their list. I didn't expect an Anvil of Doom, but no Catapults?
- I dislike not being able to form a retinue around a character. Minor point, but since there is no leadership it would have been nice just to be able to insert a character into a unit instead of having him hang out on his own in the back.


I think in the case of skirmishers, it was that 1) none of their existing models are skirmishers, and 2) they probably tried to implement them before but couldn't find a way to make them work and just dropped the idea. I miss them too, but if their absence ensures a streamlined set of rules I'll deal with it. The unit type "Troops" seems to fit the bill for harassing/redirecting units anyway, so I guess you could just model them on that base size and call it a day.

You're kind of right about troops. Page 27 of the Gamer's Edition (and I assume the bigger book) explains how to build an army; furthermore, Troops are just one of three possible sizes of a unit. Skeletons can be troops, regiments, or hordes. If a unit does not have Troops as an option, then it's not a Troop. Army composition is a bit odd compared to WHFB, since it's all about unlocking additional units by purchasing other units, so you don't have a huge disparity of army composition (you're never going to face off against 10 dwarf cannons, for instance).

Mantic never intended to have 1:1 units from WHFB. They're still interested in making their own game, even if it's just Tolkien: The Tropes: The game. Anything not covered by the existing army list can be potentially covered by Allies, so using Stone Throwers as an example, you could take Kingdom of Men as an ally, take a single regiment, and unlock the Siege Engine. It's not quite ideal, but since KoW only cares about base sizes and not looks, you can always just proxy an existing dwarf unit for a KoM regiment and make them special mercenaries ("Bugman's Fightin' Irregulars" or other flavorful title).

Not putting characters in a regiment is weird, yeah. I think they did it to keep the dreaded "bunker" tactic from being prevalent, but I also think they wanted to enforce the idea that you can make a scenic base for your units and not have to worry about fitting a character in there or not.
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Commander_Jay » Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:28 am

So, Fantasy tournaments kind of stopped a while ago. Our club was one of the last refuges for Fantasy. For that reason alone, we may still play some, just so we have reasons to use our huge armies.

For the 131 club, as always we're member driven, so we play and set up games for whatever members want. Some still want Fantasy, so we'll try to have some events. I'm thinking a narrative event, with one person as a DM for the day.

Fantasy used to be big, back when the club and games in general where only 40K and Fantasy. I didnt even know of any other games. After many years of Warhammer products, Kevin showed me Warmachine one day. And many of us began to play all these new games. Now you see a lot of Malifaux, X-Wing, Warmachine, and Bloodbowl.

Kings of War is a maybe. People have been talking about it for a while, but it hasnt caught on around here. We'll all be sure to check out the demos, and give it a fair shake. It'd be a pity to have to simplify some of the best models and rules, but its better than the lawless Age of Sigmar.

And I'm hopeful that they'll release a new Fantasy, perhaps as a more complex rule set for Age of Sigmar, or just as a stand alone game. Maybe Total War: Warhammer will help. Or at least be left to thrive on its own.

And last:

Inquisitor Wall wrote:Sadly all of my fantasy models are now sitting in my display case probably forever. I wish they had killed fantasy before making wood elves even worse.


Yeah... [Very sad face].
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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby J Rzasa » Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:19 am

I get it's not 1 to 1. I'm not sad there isn't a Hammer's Equivalent, or a Longbeards equivalent (There is one that is combined), but it seemed like a strange omission. You'd think everyone would have a stone thrower. Again, not a huge deal, but I can see some people being a little irritated when they go to convert over.

I talked to Bouch and figured out my confusion on how armies are built. That section really could have used an example.

Overall I'm really happy with it. It'll give me an excuse to buy and paint huge armies and roll dice with my buddies.

~J

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Re: So....what happens to Fantasy tournaments now

Postby Commander_Jay » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:55 pm

I got bored and plugged a lot of these terms into Google Trends. Here's a quick summary of general web search traffic thru google. Focusing on the big details.

TL,DR: Age of Sigmar spikes and then drops to very low levels, Fantasy remains flat, and pretty strong, and Kings of War gains popularity.

I plugged in "age of sigmar", "warhammer fantasy", "warhammer 40k", "kings of war", and "malifaux". The first four terms to compare what happened around and since the release of Age of Sigmar, and Malifaux as an unrelated game. Note that Warhammer Fnatasy and Warhammer 40K have many other names or various spellings, so their numbers are likely under represented.

Looking at the past year, until May 2015, most numbers are level. On a scale to 100, "warhammer 40k" gets a 90 average, "warhammer fantasy" gets a 13 average, Malifaux a 10 average, Kings of War a 2, and Age of Sigmar 0.

From June to September things get moving. The scales are normalized, so only compare the numbers within the following range, not to the previous time period. (Warhammer 40K's 90 then is about equivalent to its 38 now). On a scale to 100, "warhammer 40k" gets a 38 average, "Age of Sigmar" gets a 18 average, Malifaux gets a 7 average, "warhammer fantasy" gets a 6 average, and Kings of War a 2.
The top of the scale is Age of Sigmar on July 4th, setting the scale at 100 for that day. But by a month later its down to 15.
In the past 90 days Age of Sigmar's search popularity dropped to a low level, nearly tied with Malifaux. Warhammer Fantasy only dropped a little, looking at its plot you wouldn't know it had been changed, nevermind discontinued. Kings of War barely registered before July 4th (and in some ranges it didn't at all); but after Age of Sigmar came out it tripled in popularity, and has maintained that level, so far.

I would have expected Warhammer Fantasy traffic to fall off. And sadly Age of Sigmar has dwindled to match Warhammer Fantasy numbers. If they stay at similar levels over time, it may be because they are now being used in the same places, with one games effectively having two names. I see a lot of posts call it both, Warhammer Fantasy/Age of Sigmar. If that's true, its a sign of Warhammer Fantasy's endurance, and Age of Sigmar's lack of effect on the world. Some pros, some cons.

Note, if you use this, ignore the most recent week, it uses projections of partial data, and is often off by large amounts.
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