They're here!

Snowflake
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Re: They're here!

Postby Snowflake » Mon May 09, 2011 7:01 pm

Ok, so my weakness on all the changes in 8th edition is slowly getting rectified, and it has caused me to be torn between Ushabti and Necropolis Knights now. I hadn't realized that monstrous infantry get their full attacks in the second rank (max 3), and with that errata that was recently posted, monstrous cavalry only get full attacks in the second rank for the rider, and none for the mount.

So this means in, say, a unit of 6x Ushabti vs 6x Necropolis Knights (yes, I know there's a points difference), the Ushabti will all get their full 3x attacks for a total of 18, while the Necropolis Knights will get front rank mount attacks (9x), and full attacks for all riders (12x).

So, in comparison, we have 18 S6 WS4 attacks from the Ushabti, vs 9x S5 WS3 poison plus 12x WS4 S4 (5 on charge) Killing blow for the Necropolis Knights. Now, for most situations this is probably going to end up about even in terms of damage, I think, given the differences in strength and weapon skill, so the real question comes down to what else do they have. Necropolis Knights are faster and more durable with their 3+ armor save (though how much that will come into play against the things they are likely to be used to attack is questionable), while Ushabti are 15 points cheaper, which is significant.

And, from a purely hobby perspective, they're both awesome models, though I think the Necropolis Knight models are slightly better.

I'm torn. Anyone else have opinions?

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Re: They're here!

Postby Lakomasoi » Mon May 09, 2011 10:40 pm

Sadly I don't think Ushabti will be seen that much this edition, one of thier big Str was that they had a decent Int. Value. Now that they have GW that is out the window. Giving them the extra hand weapon I don't think is worth it cause at Str4 your better off taking TG in large numbers with Swords and Shields.

I would go with the knights any day of the week it seems

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Re: They're here!

Postby Snowflake » Mon May 09, 2011 10:53 pm

I would tend to agree. While striking last is not nearly as terrible in 8th edition as it was in 7th, it's still a big deal.

Really, my wife cleared this up for me. As she pointed out, I'll spend a lot more time painting these than I will playing them (more than likely), so I should go with the models I like more. And I really love the Necropolis Knight models.

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Re: They're here!

Postby Lakomasoi » Mon May 09, 2011 11:06 pm

I'll still be testing things out with each units. I think Bow Ushabti would do really well for rear guards. minimum 3 Str 6 bow shots could take out a warmachine every two or three turns and do some minimal damage to lone monsters and Char. Also if you happen to AOE that extra attack/ Shot spell then now its 6 Str. 6 shots.

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Re: They're here!

Postby Snowflake » Mon May 09, 2011 11:27 pm

Eh. I'm really not a fan of the great bows. Even with 6 shots, that's only 2 Str 6 hits for 150 points, and relies on getting the spell off. I feel like I could just take a Catapult and get more mileage out of it. Or a few Carrion, or a Scorpion, if I really need war machine assassins. Seems like there are a lot of things that would kill war machines quicker and cheaper.

But, then, I've already expressed my opinion of TK shooting. I think you could make it work if you really really wanted to, but I'd just feel like I was trying to hammer the square peg in a round hole when I should just be playing Empire, Dwarves, or almost any Elves.

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Re: They're here!

Postby Lakomasoi » Mon May 09, 2011 11:36 pm

Oh no don't think i'll be taking them FOR the shooting but its just a nice bonus instead of having back field guards sitting there with nothing to do the whole game.

EDIT: on the note of Carrion I've heard they hit like a ton of bricks this edition. At least compared to their last incarnate

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Re: They're here!

Postby Snowflake » Mon May 09, 2011 11:58 pm

You mentioned it, so I looked it up (got both codices here). You're right, same cost, most things are the same, except Str 4 with 3 attacks rather than Str 3 with 2 attacks like they used to be. Much much better, I agree. And at 24 points for that kind of power, they would almost certainly be my go-to unit should I decide I need war machine assassins. I'm postponing that decision till I play a few games and see, though. Especially since the Carrion models are one of the few models that I really don't like.

Also, I had to revise my opinion. I was doing the dishes and running comparative numbers in my head, and decided that, with the 6 point skeleton archers, TK really doesn't come off as bad compared to the other shooting armies. I'd say the real kicker is just the lack of mass war machine support that would turn me off. The ability to have 4 or 5 war machines supporting the Dwarf or Empire shooters is really the difference, IMO. Good hits with the engines are what will make or break them.

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Re: They're here!

Postby Kinne » Tue May 10, 2011 7:55 am

Actually, I would rate the skeleton archers pretty high. They always hit on a 5+, which may seem crap, but all BS3 models hit on a 5+ beyond half range. And with how much terrain you use now, and the fact that units can shelter in it without fear, Soft and Hard Cover modifiers are more prevalent. Shooting long range at a unit in a building? 5+. Shooting long range at a unit behind a forest while the Storm Banner is going off? 5+. Even if they get charged, normal units need a 5+. The only time they're going to be worse than a BS3 archer is short range with no cover in the way.

But since only 1/3rd of their shots are going to hit, you need to take a LOT for them to be effective. Even against something with no armor and T3, thirty archers will net you only five kills. Against Chaos Knights? Thirty shots will MAYBE net you one kill. Against something like Dwarfs or Chaos, their effectiveness is going to be extremely limited. Firing them at heavy infantry with T4 would be a waste. Even with Smiting, you'll go from sixty shots to twenty hits to seven wounds to three or four dead (assuming a 4+ save). They're really only effective against light infantry, fast cavalry, beasts and swarms.

The Ushabti bows are cool, but I'm not sure if they're worth it. I'm going to make two assumptions here -- one, Ushabti with bows follow the same rules as skellies (BS2, no To Hit modifiers), and Ushabti bows don't penetrate ranks. So a unit of three Ushabti will score one hit, two if benefiting from Smiting. Six Ushabti would get two or four. Now they'd be great against heavy cav, like Empire, Chaos or Blood Knights, but useless against War Machines (four hits would turn into one wound), and killing three light infantry models would be kind of sad. They could help against Monsters, which are becoming more and more prevalent. Do the bows do Multiple Wounds? If so, that'd be a good role. And I would imagine they are kind of like Space Marine Devastator Squads -- they lay down some heavy fire, so you think of them as a "ranged" unit. Then you get into combat, and you realize that they're S4. They can also advance with the army and fire their bows without penalty. The only trouble is, Great Weapons would make them more effective in combat, and when you have crap Initiative (I'm assuming 1 or 2 here), you might as well take the +2S and Strike Last. . .you're going to Strike Last anyway.

To be honest, the TK and O&G books look. . .balanced. I'm sure people will find some broken combinations to run with them (people always do). But they just seem to have added some new stuff (or, in the case of TK, a LOT of new stuff), and they don't seem runaway crazy.
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Re: They're here!

Postby Snowflake » Tue May 10, 2011 8:39 am

No multiple wounds, just a straight S6 hit. And yeah, BS2 just like the other shooters. I agree that their niche, if you take them, would be picking off high-value high-armor single wound models, like Knights. Like most of the army other than the monsters, they're initiative 3, so they would go last against a lot of things anyway. The great weapons wreck house, but you can't have both a great weapon and a great bow. They're still a great unit, just, yeah, they're a little overshadowed by the Necropolis Knights. This is doubly true if you take Ramhotep (which at 110 points, you absolutely should), and luck out to get Master Artisan on them. Rerolled 3+ armor save for the whole game? Yes please.

I agree with the general feeling about both the TK and O&G books. There's a lot of great stuff, but it's more that everything is solid, so there aren't a lot of obvious choices. Nothing seems worthless, and nothing stands out to me as overpowered, except maybe Ramhotep, I think he's underpriced for what he does. But even with him it's arguable.

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Dez
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Re: They're here!

Postby Dez » Tue May 10, 2011 10:38 am

Here's something interesting in regards to the bows: The Nehekharan Undead rule says that they can only elect to Hold when charged. That makes them a little less useful.
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