1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Lord Padriac
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1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Mon Jan 13, 2014 6:16 pm

So be gentle. After going back and forth over Skaven or Dwarf, I've finally decided to sink a big chunk into my Dwarf Army first. I just can't sink enough cash into the number of models a Skaven horde will need right now, they will be a slow build up. I am fine with this. I will probably be able to field up to 4000 points if I use everything, but 3500 seems to be one of the fan favorite numbers so that's what I'm going with as I think about lists.

I understand there is a new book coming next month for Dwarfs. Most is not likely to change too much of the basic anyway and if something becomes obsolete I'm good with that as I want the models for display as well as play - not mention assembling, converting & painting enjoyment. So with that in mind here's my first idea. Any advice about obvious rules misunderstandings shown by the way the list is planned or general strategy is appreciated.

I understand the Lord and Heroes will be targets, that's why I hid them in units except for the Thane which I suppose could go into the Thunderers or Quarrelers for the protection of a unit. I think, from comments I've read about other Dwarf lists it may appear gunlineish. This does not bother me in the least as it would seem it's the way the Dwarfs are meant to be played and it seems to be where their strengths lead to. I'd be interested in hearing about a more offensive way to play them though if that is something that can be done effectively.

Please note the Hammerers will be converts that I am already working on with some greenstuff mods (chainmail, a few plates, etc) and a few other things because 1) F@#k over $20.00 for five models and 2) Those metal Hammerer models are kinda hideous looking.

This list uses 3488 of 3500 points though I could increase one of the Warrior units to 46 and have only three unused points.

Dwarf Lord - General - 323 points
Pistol - 10pts
Dwarf Handgun - 15pts
Shield - 3pts
Shield Bearers - 25pts
Rune of Fire - 5pts
Master Rune of Gromril - 25pts
Rune of Shielding - 25pts
Rune of Preservation - 15pts
Master Rune of Challenge - 25pts
Rune of Warding x 2 - 30pts

Hammerers - In unit with Lord - 595 points
Hammerers x 40 - 480pts
Shields - 40pts
Musician - 6pts
Standard Bearer - 12pts
Rune of Courage - 30pts
Rune of Sanctuary - 15pts
Gate Keeper - 12pts

Thunderers - 325 points
Thunderers x 20 - 280pts
Shields - 20pts
Musician - 5 pts
Standard Bearer - 10pts
Veteran - 10pts
Two Pistols - 0pts

Quarrellers - 305 points
Quarrellers x 20 - 220pts
Shields - 20pts
Great Weapons - 40pts
Musician - 5pts
Standard Bearer - 10pts
Veteran - 10pts

Cannon - 200 points
Cannon - 90pts
Engineer - 15pts
Dwarf Handgun - 5pts
Brace of Pistols - 5pts
Rune of Forging - 35pts
Rune of Accuracy - 25pts
Rune of Fortune - 25pts

Grudge Thrower - 205 points
Grudge Thrower - 80pts
Engineer - 15pts
Dwarf Handgun - 5pts
Brace of Pistols - 5pts
Master Rune of Defense - 40pts
Rune of Forging - 35pts
Rune of Accuracy - 25pts

Organ Gun - 120points

Dwarf Warriors - 430 points
Dwarf Warriors x 45 - 360pts
Shields - 45pts
Musician - 5pts
Standard Bearer - 10pts
Veteran - 10pts

Master Engineer - In unit with Dwarf Warriors - 144 points
Master Engineer - 70pts
Brace of Pistols - 10pts
Dwarf Handgun - 10pts
Great Weapon - 4pts
Rune of Speed - 5pts
Rune of Resistance - 25pts
Rune of Preservation - 15pts
Rune of Stone - 5pts

Dwarf Warriors - 430 points
Dwarf Warriors x 45 - 360pts
Shields - 45pts
Musician - 5pts
Standard Bearer - 10pts
Veteran - 10pts

Runesmith - In second unit of Dwarf Warriors - 151 points
Runesmith - 70pts
Great Weapon - 4pts
Shield - 2pts
Master Rune of Balance - 50pts
Rune of Spellbreaking - 25pts

Thane - Battle Standard Bearer - Hanging back with Lord & Hammerers- 260 points
Thane - 110pts
Oath Stone - 20pts
Army Battle Standard - 25pts
Master Rune of Grungni - 50pts
Rune of Courage - 30pts
Rune of Battle - 25pts

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Commander_Jay
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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Commander_Jay » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:19 pm

Ok, that's a lot!

Planning out a big army is great, but dont forget to plan smaller too (most games are between 2000 and 3000 points). Some people even play a lot smaller.

I'll go down the list, bit by bit. Hope you like lots of feedback!

With all specific choices, you may want to wait until the new book. All the troops and such will be great, but you wont know how you'll want your special equipment choices.

Dwarf Lord. You'll rarely use the handgun or pistol. And you definitely don't need both. You won't use them, as you'll want to move, and then get in close combat. The pistol may be a lot better, as you can still use it as you move. (Side note, like shooting on the move? Try Rangers with throwing Axes).
Your armor, shieldbearers, and shield make your armor save 1+. So the Master Rune of Gromril does not do anything. The Rune of Shielding will rarely do anything (as your unit is shot, not the single model). It works great if you go off on your own, just not while in a unit.
Want some more punch, swap the Shield for a Rune of Stone, and give him a Great Weapon. Still a 1+ save, but now +2 Str.

Hammerers. Keep in mind your Lord doesnt have to go in this unit, as Heroes and Lords can deploy in any unit, and move as needed (great for keeping your characters we're they're needed most).
The Runes of Courage and Sanctuary are not the most effective. I personally put the Master Rune of Grungni here, to free up the Battle Standard Bearer for better things.

For Thunderers, consider splitting the unit in two. So you can divide your fire, move as needed, and can not have them all tied down in close combat by just one enemy.

Quarrellers. Great Weapons and Shields loses some effectiveness, as in close combat you must use a special weapon if you have one (so you must use the Great Weapon, and can not choose the use the Shields). They still work at range. With great weapons, I like them in single blocks, and they can double as a melee unit.

Cannon. The engineer can not use the handgun (literally can not fire it). The pistol only works in close combat, so I dont recommend either.

Grudge Thrower, same thing with the pistol and handgun (the engineer no longer gets to shoot anything but the warmachine). Remove the Rune of Forging, it's limited to cannons only.

Master Engineer. Interesting idea, but I recommend you use him for artillery support only. Your setup would be better for a Thane. Master Engineers want to be in the back, with as many Artillery pieces within 3 inches as possible. I place mine between two Grudge Throwers and a Bolt Thrower. If you have extra points, consider a shield and rune of stone, but I run mine almost bare. Only his artillery master rule matters (which is in the FAQ only). At least for the next month or so.

Thane with BSB. Good to put him with a tough unit. Rune of Courage isn't a big deal. Your army would rarely fail a fear test (failing only 1 out of 144 time on average when the Lord and BSB are alive and nearby). All BSB models the enemy will try to kill ASAP. So, for mine, I dont give him any magical banner runes, instead giving him the Master Rune of Gromril and a Rune of Resistance in order to make him as hard to kill as possible. I would hold off on modelling him on an Oath Stone, as it might be very different soon.

So, overall, a cool list! Would be pretty tough too. I know I corrected a lot, but please dont take it the wrong way, my suggestions are only minor, your core design and units are solid.
-Commander Jay

"If you know the enemy and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Tue Jan 14, 2014 12:44 pm

Oh, you were finished? Well allow me to retort.


It's not really correcting as much as teaching and I sense no elitist attitude in it - so I am grateful rather than annoyed; which means I can take the advice instead of angrily brushing it off. Actually a rather pleasantly different experience that I've had here so far to other gamer forums I've been on. (The unbelievable bungholes that were most of the people I ran across on the Magic forums when I was playing for instance.) I will post an updated list later but this is how I was looking at this and first impressions while considering your advice.

I do realize this could be something of an exercise in futility as far as specific choices for runes/equipment goes with no real hints about the new book solid other than it's coming; I'm just trying to get a feel for what works or doesn't and why, thanks for playing along; it is very helpful. Also, I might not be able to plunk down the cash for the bulk of this until next month anyway. So I might just wait until the book hits (or doesn't) next month. Right now it is experimenting with converting the four warriors I want to use out of the box I have into Hammerers, assembling/painting the rest of the warriors and two boxes of miners someone gave me as a gift and probably another box of something or other I'll pick up before then.

The point size doesn't concern me too much. I wanted to start with 3500 because it seemed to be a very common number used and it gave me the room to play with a wider range of options. Off the top of my head for downsizing purposes I would think about getting rid of the Organ Gun, cutting the Quarrelers down to 12, cutting the Hammerers & Warriors down to 35 model units. Those things along with eliminating or switching around a few equipment & rune options that do not quite work or won't work or are superfluous to other benefits I already have will get me down to 3000 pretty easily without changing the basic line up too much.

Forgot about the Lord not being able to move and shoot with the handgun, I will just dump it and use the points elsewhere. It is not useful to me for him and the entire unit he is with to have to stand still for a turn just for one more ranged shot at a mob that's probably in range of something more devastating anyway. Will rethink the rest of his armor and runes before I post a revised list.

I realize the Lord doesn't have to go into the Hammerers or any unit at all for that matter, but half the fun with this for me is also the role playing aspect and goddammit Kings get body guards! Useful Kings also go where they are needed most so I will have to have a little post-it or something in my rule book or army list reminding me (I'm liable to forget otherwise) that he can in fact move to a Warrior unit or the Quarreler unit or wherever I need him the most. I will rethink the Hammerers runes as well.

The Thunderers I had worried about making too small at two 10 model units, but it will give me far greater coverage of the battlefield. Hmmm...

The Quarrellers I know cannot use the shields when they inevitably get stuck in melee. The shields are fairly cheap additions though and should give them some survivability from ranged. I might dump the great weapons anyway though as they would provide a far better tar pit and maybe a few would survive the melee to shoot another turn with the shields in play.

The crew running the war machines not being able to shoot is just stupid. I've seen a few crews manning actual artillery and believe me they have working rifles. However, if they are useless options in the game the points from the Cannon & Grudge Thrower Master Engineer pistol & handguns will be appreciated elsewhere.

Will have to consider and rework the Master Engineer possibly. I will probably try him both ways to be honest. It seemed interesting to have a sort of mobile artillery piece hidden in a normal unit.

The Thane I thought to use to buff the Lord, Hammerers, Quarrellers, Organ Gun and whatever else might be in the back until the battle lines were softened up a bit for a big punch. Perhaps I will switch him for the Master Engineer in the back near the artillery and put the Thane in with the Warriors to buff that unit and make it a bit heavier; obviously reworking rune choices for that role. Although putting him by himself as a "too dangerous to live" target and never counting on getting any real use beyond that out of him has some appeal too.

I will be saving quite a bit of points by just getting rid of things I didn't quite understand and/or don't need so I might be able to add to the list a bit. I will repost it later today. Thank you again for the advice.

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Commander_Jay » Tue Jan 14, 2014 1:15 pm

Quarrellers with great weapons are actually very good in close combat. They have all the seam stats as a warrior and the great weapons make them devastating. I'd recommend using them (assuming they keep them in the new book).

Don't worry about leaving the master engineer by himself nea tthe War Machines. He gets a special Look Out Sir save. And you could give him a Rune of Shielding to make him nearly invulnerable. That Rune is not very balanced, and may change.
-Commander Jay

"If you know the enemy and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:04 pm

Yeah, I was just looking again and double checked to be sure but most of the core units seem to have identical stats. The Longbeards go up a smidge but for the most part the difference seems to be in rules attached to the different units and the special equipment/runes they are allowed to take. Methinks the great weapons go back on the Quarrellers after all.

Looking up the Artillery Master rule it looks like he basically gets to try and duck quick behind the big war machines while also giving the bolt thrower, grudge thrower and cannon specific benefits just by being close. Definitely have to toss him to the back then.

By not balanced do you mean that too many people who have been beaten by a Dwarf army have complained that it was because of the Rune of Shielding and Games Workshop may nerf it while giving back some neat sounding but unusable boon to compensate? Seems to be the way it works in most games.

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Commander_Jay » Tue Jan 14, 2014 2:22 pm

I dont mean that people complain, but that it its usually a useless rune (when in a unit). But very useful in this case. Which means its rarely taken, and unlikely to be in the next book. So specific things like this may have to wait a month or two.

By the way, if you need cheap troops, consider the battalion box, or check eBay. The old Battle for Skull Pass Dwarves are still the cheapest set GW has released, and can be found online. But they are also one piece models (easy to make and use and paint, but with no custom options).
-Commander Jay

"If you know the enemy and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Tue Jan 14, 2014 5:40 pm

Ah, the other reason things get nerfed or cut. They'll do what they're going to do, it's just phantom bits anyway so it's not like I need to go out and purchase a new model because a rune or two get cut. If they add a really choice model or two THAT will force me to go out and buy a new model.

Three battalion boxes are the larger part of what I'm planning on ordering, because I did the math and you basically get the cannon/organ gun for free.

eBay lets anybody selling a lot of stuff and thereby paying them a ton of fees get away with some really sketchy behavior that has bit me pretty good before so I am wary of going to that source. If you know a few sellers you've done business with before with good results then that's a different story. Outside of that I might risk a few ducats on some bitz lots or single models pulled from IoB or something similar, but that's about it.

Still working out a few details for a revised list.

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:15 pm

So revised list taking some the advice and re-reading some the core rules into account. Also a bit more compact to save space int the post. And yeah, specific rune and equipment choices might go bye-bye or be changed for something else when the new book hits.

Dwarf Lord - 309pts - General - starts in a unit with the Hammerers
Great Weapon, Shield, Shieldbearers, Master Rune of Kragg the Grim, Rune of Shielding, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Preservation, Master Rune of Challenge, Rune of Warding

Thane 135pts - Battle Standard Bearer - starts in a unit of Dwarf Warriors

Runesmith 151pts - thinking of starting him with the Quarrellers
Great Weapon, Shield, Master Rune of Balance, Rune of Spellbreaking

Master Engineer 115pts thinking of leaving him alone back with the Grudge Thrower, Cannon and maybe on of the Organ Guns also nearby for closer support and protection.
Rune of Preservation, Rune of Resistance, Rune of Stone

Hammerers x 40 600pts
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Gate Keeper, Master Rune of Grungni

Dwarf Warriors x 45 430pts
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Veteran

Dwarf Warriors x 45 430pts
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Veteran

Quarrellers x 20 305pts
Shields, Great Weapon, Musician, Standard Bearer, Veteran

Thunderers x 12 205pts
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Veteran (upgraded to two pistols)

Thunderers x 12 205pts
Shields, Musician, Standard Bearer, Veteran (upgraded to two pistols)

Cannon 190pts
Engineer (naked), Rune of Forging, Rune of Fortune, Rune of Penetrating

Grudge Thrower 185pts
Engineer (naked), Master Rune of Defense, Rune of Accuracy, Rune of Fortune

Organ Gun 120pts

Organ Gun 120pts

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Commander_Jay » Wed Jan 15, 2014 10:20 pm

What else is on the Thane BSB? They're only 90 pts stock. And the cannon really can't use a Rune of Penetration. He's already Strength 10, and you can't go any higher.

Overall, it looks good.
-Commander Jay

"If you know the enemy and you know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." -Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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Re: 1st 3500 Point Dwarf list ideas

Postby Lord Padriac » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:21 pm

Nothing else is on the Thane. Warband apparently just has some incorrect numbers. I'll have to go into the xml file and correct them.


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